ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums
ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums => Development, Suggestions => Topic started by: BGSWebDesign on September 06, 2006, 02:18:06 am
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Hi DW,
I'm working on a number of improvements but I don't think this one will make it into the very next release.
ok, you should have known we're going to want to know, what do you think will make it into this next release?
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Here's what I see as essential:
- checkboxes on user page + selection/all result options copy/move/edit
- link tracking improvements
- banned addresses/domains/ips
- import via "textarea"
- import -> remove
- HTML msg via URL
- possibly an open-rate tracking option (I get a huge # of requests for it - yes I know your views on this feature and will be sure to warn users:))
After that I'll probably come up with a few others. ;)
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Sorry Brett, I didn't have it set to notify me of replies and I just happened to check back.
I guess I would have to clarify with you what you mean by an Action as opposed to a Conversion. To me they sound synonymous. A conversion/action could be anything; submitting a contact form, subscribing to your newsletter, a sale in your shopping cart... almost anything that happens on your website can be tracked.
Yes, I'd definitely be interested and open to suggestions on how Conversion Scout could be integrated into LMP; both solid products by the way :wink:
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Wrong thread? :D Was this because I split the top 2 posts from another? :?
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Hi,
Was this because I split the top 2 posts from another?
I don't know, better check your forums software phpBB, but it looks that way.... anyway, did you move it, because if not, you see an excellent reply - by dbowen1, will you consider it?
You mention 'link tracking improvements'? I really think you would do best to focus your attention on the 'split testing messages/subject lines', WHY, because those options can be part of LMP, and really, as I said before, there are already tons of tracking/conversion tracking software programs available with years of debugging and accuracy!
Do you see - you could end up spending a year or more messing with this Click-Through/Click-to-Sales and other stuff, why not let someone who has already coded this go ahead and get involved, and work on integrating their package, or work with them to offer a 'BUNDLED LIST MAIL PRO', 'ADVANCED Package', or something like that? Charge additional fees, or make it up with commissions on the back end from these other products...
I'm getting much more interested in going even more into LMP, but I have to see a commitment by you, Dean, to apply your knowledge to the areas where it is most advantageous, otherwise you're 'spinnging your wheels', I'm talking from experience, I spun my own wheels for years, and it's no fun....
Now, back to dbowen1's (what is your first name?) question:
I would have to clarify with you what you mean by an Action as opposed to a Conversion. To me they sound synonymous
No, they are different, I'll give you an example, an Action might be someone clicked a link, or a button to get to your order page, while the sale is the actual fulfilment (completion) of the sale, in other words you want to know how many are getting to the order page, versus how many are completing the process and actually ordering, there are reasons this is very important, it shows you how well your order form is doing at getting people to finish up and order and can point out all kinds of problems with how your order process is working...
As you see above, I would love it if a stable/debugged product such as yours could be integrated into LMP, but that's up to DW... I hope he feels the same way?
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Ok, I am starting to see more clearly. So you want to track clicks on links or buttons on your own site as an intermediate step to a conversion, to see what actions they performed (on your site) before getting to the sale?
That would be a feature we can look at and would take some time but is surely feasible.
Also, with a little imagination I think Conversion Scout can be used quite effectively as-is for tracking the effectiveness of your mailings, without direct integration per se.
The tracking power comes from your links. An example for tracking a mailing would be this:
1. Make a Campaign Link, which would look like this:
http://www.mysite.com/landing.php?u=xx&cp=50percentOff&site=Newsletter-List5&cost=100
When your subscribers click this link, they will be sent to http://www.mysite.com/landing.php and will be tracked in Conversion Scout as coming from your "Newsletter-List5" under the "50percentOff" campaign, and a cost of $100 (if you hired a copywriter or something) so you can track your ROI.
2. Put this link in your newsletter and let the tracking begin.
3. Optional: if you want, you can put this link unto LMP's own link tracking program so you can count it there first then send them to the Conversion Scout link. That way you can track both!
Anyway, the key is that these links do not need to be saved in Conversion Scout beforehand; so really no direct integration is required to use it effectively for mailings. Just create the links and put them in your newsletter; Conversion Scout does the rest when they land on your site.
With regards to split testing; if Dean can get the "send one email to half the list and another email to the other half" feature implemented, all you would need to do is make sure the Conversion Scout links in each email were different and you'd have built-in tracking with regards to which email they responded to.
One last note, there are all kinds of ways I can work with Dean to bring Conversion Scout to LMP users. Maybe offer a discount coupon he can announce in the forum/put into sales confirmation emails, private label reseller program where he can earn 50% recurring profits, and an affiliate program that pays a one time commission of 200% on the monthly price.
-Dan
P.S. Sorry if this thread is getting off topic. I was confused what the split was for and which topic went where...
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I don't wish to sound negative but for a mailing system shouldn't DW be concentrating on features for mailing systems as he has suggested.
Features for tracking people visiting webpages and conversion rates from different sales pages do not seem strictly mailing functions, advantageous as they might be.
Split mailings etc. for split testing the mailing success sounds like a powerful mailing feature.
I can also see that selective mailings based on some previously registered sales completions (or other criteria) would be essential to many.
Ok, ok... so if you can do split mailing (or even without the split) and you also have the feature for registering sales and selecting future mailings based on these sales... its not much of a jump to link the click-through from the mail to the conversion from the resulting sale made and registered.
:oops: I seem to have talked myself into this... perhaps DW should actually plan (as time permits) for these to be included and linked as an integral part of the most complete mailing system.
I don't think using 'an add-on' would be as powerful as having a comprehensive system as an integral feature of ListMailPro.
A fully featured and inclusive system would put ListMailPro even further ahead of the pretender competition. :)
Suggesting that some features are only available as extras or add-in's makes the system sound patchwork and not inherently comprehensive.
...just a thought.
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Hi Trevor, dbowen,
I don't wish to sound negative but for a mailing system shouldn't DW be concentrating on features for mailing systems as he has suggested.
That's exactly the point, dbowen already has a system to do this, the question was if he could integrate it with LMP and save DW some time since it's already running, and dbowen has already done integration, look at his FCK Editor integration - I think it's a great job!
After you look at that, do you honestly think it looks like a 'patchwork program'? I don't.
Split mailings etc. for split testing the mailing success sounds like a powerful mailing feature.
I can also see that selective mailings based on some previously registered sales completions (or other criteria) would be essential to many.
That's EXACTLY what we were thinking!
You see with LMP staying the way it is - you STILL setup tracking in LMP (I do this right now), so that you can still use the function such as move CLICKED People from one list to their appropriate "Interested" list, BUT then what you do is add in the Conversion Tracking from ConversionScout (I believe DW was thinking about including something like this by writing it himself!).
The point being that DW won't have to write this since it could take a year to develop something like that AND guarantee that it works properly, etc, etc... instead integrate ConversionScout into LMP, OR at the very minimum offer a package that will do that (or a bundle whatever you call it), that is an additional cost, but still the end-user feels they're getting an ALREADY TESTED and WORKING solution that would benefit them... anyway all of this would be easy to find out, just run a Poll DW?
without direct integration per se.
Yeah, I see your point here, it could be possible even without integration, I thought it would be cool with integration - but anyway it's DW's program and his call - I was just presenting possible ideas - and hope they help...
if Dean can get the "send one email to half the list and another email to the other half" feature implemented, all you would need to do is make sure the Conversion Scout links in each email were different and you'd have built-in tracking with regards to which email they responded to.
EXACTLY, I agree - I've been pushing for this type of 'Split-Sending' feature for a LONG TIME, but also including one more very important aspect, also allow the Subject Lines to be SPLIT, that way you can test JUST the different SUBJECT LINES, this is very, very important from my own 10 years of business online, sometimes the subject line alone can result in 100% greater click-throughs or more.
I hope this can somehow come about - it all sounds really GREAT!
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Yes, I do see that... I talked myself into it whilst typing my first comments...
... and I agree that the other integrations and software are great...
... it just occurred to me whilst typing that once split sending is done by DW... eventually... and the feature for accepting and registering sales (to be used for selective excluding from some messages which was discussed recently), then there wouldn't be much else to add, and link (from the database,) the sale, to the sales page it resulted from.
This would then give the click-through rate for each mail (if they were different) to the sales page with the conversion rate if a sale resulted.
Alternatively, with the same mail sent in the split-test but with links to two different sales pages, then the conversions of the two sales pages could be compared.
It seems that with just a little extra planning before doing the split feature and also the sales logging feature, the two could be integrated to give comprehensive results.
This arrangement would allow split testing of mail and/or sales pages together with a total click-through rate, separate click-through for each mail, total conversions and individual conversions for each mail/sales page pair. These would also be registered as sales of individual products against customers for selective mailing exclusions and/or promotions.
Considering that 90% has to be done if DW adds the two features that have been discussed then it seems just a little bit more to pull the data from the two features together to obtain more benefit from his work (and value to his product).
I mention this because if the features are planned with this integration in mind, then the extra work is minimal but the extra value enormous.
Trying to add these features as separate units would make integration more difficult later.
It almost seems easier pulling the data required from the database (assuming it has been defined with this in mind) than spending any time arranging for other systems to integrate. If they already (or will) integrate without any additional work from DW then fine, they could be used anyway. But planning the data format at the start to allow for the extra bit of code to be added eventually would add significant value to DW's product when he does include it and only require some relatively small amount of additional code. (DW could fit it in, in his tea break, maybe :shock: )
The increase in value of DW's product, I feel, would be significant.
Regards.
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Hi,
pulling the data required from the database (assuming it has been defined with this in mind) than spending any time arranging for other systems to integrate.
Pulling WHAT data in from the database - there is none! Why do you think it's impossible to get STATS on anything in LMP? This is exactly why, the entire LMP was not designed to provide this data, and exactly why I'm suggesting an integration.
. (DW could fit it in, in his tea break, maybe
Your are F*ing hilarious!!!! I had this in my last post and erased it, because I thought by now people up here, especially you knew what it takes to code this type of application - basically it's this - I've got a bachelor's degree in computer science and 20 years experience in commerce, finance, scientific/research. After that 10 years of running my own database design shop - There is
NO WAY someone does that on his tea break!!.
That's over a one year job to guarantee a fully debugged and working version of Click-through rates, etc, etc, etc... do you have a year to wait around for that, with all the other features asked for, it's more likely a two year job :twisted:
Tell me what your background is in computer science and then I'll stop laughing :lol:
This reminds me of what I used to hear ALL THE TIME - 'I've got an Uncle Bob that does computer programming in his spare time in the basement, he can knock that out in a few weeks'.... yeah right, and 'I've got a grandma that flys fighter jets for fun on the weekends'!
Tell you what I'm about to do - with all this 'yap about doing stuff on tea breaks', I'm about to code this whole thing up myself... and I ain't NO Uncle Bob in your basement... it will be done right, and it will WORK, the first time...
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Wow, I thought the tea break comment was in jest. Did anyone else take it that way?
Guys, I think the best way to keep this moving forward (and I'm not trying to be a salesman here in DW's forum) is to:
1. sign up for a free trial of Conversion Scout at http://www.driveninteractive.com/landing/freetrial/cs.php
2. Create some campaign links and put them into your mailings
3. Watch the tracking begin and start thinking about how you would like to see the two systems work together.
If we can nail down some very specific requirements I could probably work something out relatively quickly.
BTW... DW, feel free to delete this if it is inappropriate. I am just trying to follow up on the conversation. I can see where, even if it would take you a year to do it, you might want to reserve the right to add conversion tracking in later on your own; and going forward with Conversion Scout now might limit those possibilities for you down the road.
Cheers,
-Dan
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Hi all,
I am sorry if my English humour was a little too subtle for anyone concerning my 'tea break' comment. I was trying to keep light hearted following my previous remark about DW adding the tracking feature 'eventually'.
My apologies to both DW and Brett.
Some explanation:
The data I was referring to would be what could be stored when links are tracked.
Presumably if links are tracked and the information is available then the data is stored.
Split testing is only sending out two versions (even if they are the same) and tracking two different links as you would if tracking any two other individual mails.
This would mean that the data from tracking the click-through to the two links would then be available.
If the feature that was mentioned for registering sales for particular products were to be implemented, then the data for sales of these specific products to individual customers would also be available.
Given that data for a click-through from a particular message link would be available and also any sales to customers that have just clicked through from that linked page would also be available, then this is the data that I was referring to.
Were that data pulled from the database, then it would not be rocket science to calculate the click-through rates from each message and also the conversion rates from each sales page clicked through to.
I am surprised that anyone did not follow this reasoning.
I have not mentioned my background in computer science as I like to think of people laughing and not getting too serious when thoughts are expressed on here.
I feel that reference to a grandma that flys fighter jets for fun on the weekends is off topic and should be moved to another thread, maybe (ohh... that was humour as well... :oops: )
Regards and best wishes to all.
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Hi,
I feel that reference to a grandma that flys fighter jets for fun on the weekends is off topic and should be moved to another thread
Yeah, I agree, move that over to the 'My Grandma Flies Fighter Jets' post :?
Ok, sorry if I got a little upset, I this is from the 10 years of self-employment coding and still running into people that really will have their uncle code their application, like it's really going to work and he does it all the time - it's no joke... and yeah, it is funny, but if it was your business and you had people telling you every day their uncle does programming and can do it no problem, you might feel the same way... I just got tired of hearing it...
If we can nail down some very specific requirements I could probably work something out relatively quickly.
I'd love to see it... I'll keep watching up here for updates... in the meantime, I'll keep tracking using AdTrackz and LMP together.
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Hi all,
I am glad that there are no bad feelings now about my comments.
I am sure that integrating some dedicated tracking and analysis application specifically written with this in mind would be superior and more comprehensive that anything that DW could be expected to include or would have time to write into LMP at this time. This synergistic and dedicated approach would give far more detailed and comprehensive results than one might expect from a 'simple' mailing system and would, perhaps be only understood and required by 'very dedicated' marketers.
My thoughts were to suggest that rather than adding requested features 'piece-meal' to LMP that a 'plan' should be adopted now with the future development in mind.
We often see suggestions of code that others have added-in to cover areas not available otherwise. Sometimes there are even whole screens of code that could be included to cover specific requirements. Maybe all this 'extra' work should be (or is) considered for inclusion into an overall development plan.
Difficulties have also resulted with updates when 'custom' code has been added to the original files.
I know that Brett has repeatedly asked what is coming in the future but the results seem to suggest that almost random areas are being tackled to support current specific requests.
I am trying to encourage a more forward looking 'plan' (which Brett has also asked for) by my suggestion that when features are considered, that they should be arranged with future development in mind and allowances made with the data structures used to take more advantage from the work that is done.
I find it frustrating that so much more use could result from consideration of the data collected and that this could be then be made available if the future is planned for.
I realise that some have a pressing immediate need for results today. This was not what my thoughts were about. A comprehensive sales analysis package is not what could be expected from LMP overnight.
What I was thinking about was what extra benefit DW could reasonably achieve in the future just from analysis of the data it seems would be collected IF some of the future schemes were to be implemented.
As I said in the beginning... these were just some thoughts... that I felt might provoke a more forward looking plan.
...ohh sorry, I didn't plan that this note would be so long. :oops:
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I'm reading, guys, and I hope to provide improvements in ALL areas while also keeping it 'simple'. I agree with some points about not making certain aspects (such as sales conversion) that can be left to more focused applications, but I also know how to do this so might go ahead and find a way.. :)
IF I can make a MySQL database of 50k or 100k individual clicks responsive I can provide daily, monthly, yearly, per-message and per-user stats. [Hopefully I can make the User Database faster at the same time...]
Adding a conversion script actually wouldn't be too hard - all it would take is a simple 'hit' to the database when a page is reached (ie, 1x1 transparent .gif or even PHP 'include') along with, maybe, a UID cookie so dupes are ignored. I don't see that feature being completely unattainable.
I've finished the checkboxes and mass user operations and am moving on. Improved link tracking stats are coming up quick!
I can see how excited some of you are about the future of ListMail... Just try to be easy on each other, ok? :D
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Hi DW,
Here's another few 'quick points', 1.) Need a 'Save As' on the User Selection Screen so I can load up a previous selection and then make changes and 'save as' a different name. 2.) I'd really appreciate it if you made the SMTP Delay a value on the Configuration screen, I know you put it in the code, but it's set at 9, I need it to be at 12 to run good for me, and it's a pain having to go through the code and make changes every time a new release comes out, actually the more of these type of configuration vars that you can move over to the config table (screen) and NOT include in config.php - the better!
A quick question, I see now where the problem is with displaying the User Database screen for 'All', I have about 8,000 pages that have to be displayed in the pull-down box on the upper-right. I think I remember in another post that you were going to do away with this in the next release, is that right?
Improved link tracking stats are coming up quick!
Great! I can't wait for this what type of stats will we be able to get? Any previews you can show us?
Thanks again, and keep on moving forward, can't wait for next release...
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Hi DW,
[BUMP]
Quote:
Improved link tracking stats are coming up quick!
Great! I can't wait for this what type of stats will we be able to get? Any previews you can show us?
Back to this, I'm looking at some stats I'm able to get now on Conversion To Sale, BUT I need more, what I also really, Really, REALLY need to know is HOW MANY of these people received the followup that led to the sale...
For example using AdTrackz (or any similar conversion tracker) you can get this:
Campaign Clicks Uniques Actions Sales CPC CPS Revenue Profit ROI
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MyCamp 25 15 0 1 $10.00 $10.00 $17.00 $7.00 70%
This is great information - BUT - I need to know HOW MANY EMails went out to result in these numbers... .THIS IS where you'll either 1.) integrate with a conversion tracker, or 2.) Do it Yourself, BUT, I NEED to have all of this, basically it's not very valuable without since I don't know if 1,000 people were sent this email (through Followups in LMP), or if 10,000 people were sent this email!
I think you can see how valuable this is, and how much is lacking WITHOUT a true way of tying n the Followups Sent to the Conversions/Sales.
Here's an idea... it may be the simplest for you: provide a simple way to assign a 'Campaign Name' (or link name) to ANY FOLLOWUP, and then give us stats (mailed out for each Campaign Name, selectable, over a time period - Month, Week, Year, Forever, or selectable time-frame).
Now what that does is let me setup a date range, ie, August 01-August 31, 2006 and look at Total Followups mailed out (by 'Campaign Name') to the group which I can also then pull the same range for stats from the Conversion Tracking Software, that way you do not need to write any conversion tracking, or include that code anywhere in LMP (at least for now).... and it would let you move forward with other things...
Of course this is separate and does NOT include what I had layed out previously about handling Split Testing and clicks/tracking that is discussed in this thread:
http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=455.0
What do you think? Everyone???
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This looks interesting Brett, but just call me naive...... are your campaigns a series of mails scheduled to go out over a period or are they a specific mail you send out at the time (that is, not scheduled)..?
Is a campaign in this sense a series of mails that go out mixed with other unrelated ones in between, maybe.
Could this mean that individual mails, which may be spread out with others between, would be tagged and then grouped into a collection if they all refer to the same campaign?
If scheduled, could some be receiving a different part of the campaign sequence? Would you identify which specific mail of a series caused a response?
Could a number of campaigns run at the same time?
Sorry I am a little unclear how immediate or 'hands free' this is intended.
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Hi,
are your campaigns a series of mails scheduled to go out over a period or are they a specific mail you send out at the time (that is, not scheduled)..?
My campaigns are two email followups that follow one after the other, a series for me is about 10 campaigns (of 2 followups each) that follow one after the other.
There's no reason it couldn't work either way, if you wanted the campaign to be the whole series, you just give the same campaign name to each followup in the series, make sense?
Is a campaign in this sense a series of mails that go out mixed with other unrelated ones in between, maybe.
As mentioned above, it could be either, as long as you give each followup that is tied to the campaign the same name, they could be mixed together, throughout a series of emails, a series could be one campaign, or it could be 10 (as in my case).
Could this mean that individual mails, which may be spread out with others between, would be tagged and then grouped into a collection if they all refer to the same campaign?
Yes exactly, you've got it :shock:
If scheduled, could some be receiving a different part of the campaign sequence? Would you identify which specific mail of a series caused a response?
You lost me here? I think so, based on which followup in the sequence they are on (each user could be on a different campaign, whichever campaign they are tagged with that is going out with the followup they are on) I would know which emails are related to which campaign and can therefore tie those to the Conversions/Sales in my Ad Tracking software.
Could a number of campaigns run at the same time?
Of course, any number could be running, 10, 20, 30 or 100, depending on how many campaigns you have assigned to your followups...
Sorry I am a little unclear how immediate or 'hands free' this is intended.
I'm hoping this is flexible enough and rigid enough to tie a followup to a conversion/sale in my other software package, that's what I'm looking for, for myself and anyone else who wants to use it, I think this would do it, for now... and provide a good enough solution to let me get an idea of how many emails are resulting in purchases - I can't do that now, I can see how many clicks are resulting in purchases, but I don't know how many emails went out to cause those clicks - that's what this would solve... got it?
Let me know about other questions, I think it's fairly straight forward...