ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums

ListMailPRO Email Marketing Software Forums => Development, Suggestions => Topic started by: DW on December 08, 2005, 03:04:27 am

Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on December 08, 2005, 03:04:27 am
Greetings ListMail Owners!

I'm seeking input from ListMail clients on this issue - your vote would be very much appreciated!

I think that there are well over 100 suggestions for the program at this point.  While I plan on implementing many features over the coming weeks and months, dozens will certainly remain and more are sure to come.

A number of my clients have recently requested custom rush features and I have provided the service at very reasonable rates.  The experience has forced me to re-evaluate accepting these jobs, however.  I am concerned that doing them causes those who don't contribute to be without the often very simple to implement features they desire and need.

I am also concerned that due to my over-generous nature I often end up giving too good a deal.  When a feature is much harder or time consuming than expected I sometimes feel undercompensated or that my time would have been better spent working on other things.  It's true - I need to stay focused on the big picture and implement what's most important for ALL ListMail users - that means the small but useful features no-one's willing to pay for, too!  At the same time I must continue working on marketing, the new web site and, above all, turning enough of a profit from LMP and other internet marketing ventures to continue my efforts working at home.

One solution I've come up with is a contribution system for new features.  I could set a price based on how difficult I feel a feature is to implement and you, my loyal happy customers, could contribute partial payments or buy features outright.  Once a feature is completely paid for I would get started immediately in an effort to have it in the next update.

The 'prices' for each feature would probably be much higher, double or triple what I've currently been charging for rush features.  As a result, me being rushed will become infrequent and I can continue to work stress-free, calm and, most important of all, collected and overly-thoughtful as I usually am.  When I am rushed, such as when a difficult feature is completely paid, I will feel good and keep my momentum because I will know that I have been compensated generously.

I would, of course, continue to work toward implementing features on a regular basis regardless of contributions.  For example, if no features are completely paid for I might implement the one that is the closest to completion percentage-wise, no matter the difficulty.

Please let me know what you think about this idea by casting your vote or replying to this post.  I really appreciate your feedback!

Regards,

DW
Title: Difficult to adjudicate on.
Post by: steve4 on December 08, 2005, 04:24:40 am
Hi Dean I voted that I don't really need new features so probably wouldn't contribute but would like to add that your superb service and commitment should not go unrewarded, lets face it people can't survive without an income. I would be happy to pay you a yearly subscription fee of $30 or so to ensure you had a guaranteed income or something to pay you for your dedication to our cause.

Maybe you could divide us into a couple of groups and those of us that don't request the new features which you should quote on seperately should contribute something for the general work and updates you provide. I am pretty computer illiterate as you may have guessed and appreciate the marketing potential of your product so I would like to contribute and have the little things done like the updates you have done for me.

I am not sure of what others think or even if you have enough subscribers to make a yearly contribution of $30 viable as an income stream but that's my two bobs worth anyway.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on December 08, 2005, 04:57:31 am
Hi Steve,

Thanks for your excellent and kind feedback!  Indeed, I will soon be implementing just that (for new clients), a yearly ~$30 subscription fee for forum support and updates of the program.  I will give current owners the option of joining onto the new system and will likely offer incentives for those who won't go quietly. :P I agree that the contribution system should be separate from this.

I plan to redo and expand the support system to include more options, such as a reasonably priced upgrade service, custom server optimization work, and a much better interface for managing server access information during installations, migrations and other support.  I am also considering 'dedicated support' for a monthly fee (~$20?), where I would respond directly to questions and have server information ready at hand so I can respond and fix issues quickly and effectively.

I think when I get it all done I will be in fine shape. :-)  It's in the works!

Thanks for your vote and again for your kind comments!
DW
Title: We have to keep you in business...but most of all..
Post by: charles2 on December 08, 2005, 05:14:44 am
Your product needs to blow away your competing market.  some add=ons could be...configurable surveys, then a way to put the users first name in a sales page or html newsletters.

Theres already products out there....but since your product collects the names and makes list....these addtions would increase the bottom line for the end users.

Just a thought

Charles
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: al on December 08, 2005, 05:27:30 am
Thank you for keeping me (us) posted on newer developments.  I look forward to more freqent updates.  Al Hanzal (David Hanzal's father)
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on December 08, 2005, 05:27:52 am
Charles,

I absolutely agree.  ListMail needs more kick-butt marketing features ASAP!  I don't expect it to take me long to get the new site and support finished and be back on task - I'm working very quickly.

Your idea for configurable surveys sounds interesting and may not be one I've heard before.  If you would start a new thread in this forum we might discuss the details of such a feature.

You should be able to easily put the first name of a user in any HTML message with a First Name message code.  If you use a message code of the type "Link to HTML" as your text message a user browsing that link will see a  personalized web page.  I see the limitation in that this cannot be used with text-only messages.  Perhaps a message code or link tracking option would be best for this.  I will add it to the suggestion list, but it would also be great if you could post this, too, as a new topic in this forum so I don't miss it.

Thanks for your response!
Title: A vote on what features to Add
Post by: Decka on December 08, 2005, 05:49:13 am
Dean Hi,

Seeing your comments about the list of 100 things you want to add, why not get your users to vote on at least some of the more important ones. That will give you a better idea of what the majority of us want.

As for charging for support and updates I realize that you need an income but I have also been using the product long enough to know that the product was originally offered with free lifetime support and updates.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on December 08, 2005, 05:58:47 am
Decka,

Thanks for your response!  I will consider acting on your excellent suggestion.  Such a poll would help me see what, in general, needs the most attention - very useful information, indeed!

Please read carefully:
Quote from: "DW"
I will soon be implementing just that (for new clients), a yearly ~$30 subscription fee for forum support and updates of the program.  I will give current owners the option of joining onto the new system and will likely offer incentives for those who won't go quietly. :P

I do not intend to go back on my word to my existing clients!  You will have the choice of joining the new system or keeping your "unlimited forum support and updates" status.

Best regards,
DW
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: AlanT on December 08, 2005, 06:40:11 am
Just to add my voice to the mix - this last year has seen the addition of a new centralized site and a shopping cart to my business.  In this experience, I've learned to appreciate the option to pay for additional features to a piece of software, either on a feature by feature basis as you're suggesting here, or for major updates to the software.

Personally, I think that it would be easier to manage the sale of updates rather than the collection of contributions towards new features.  Trying to get a group of users motivated to donate towards the development of a new feature (that may be months away from implementation) seems like it would be an uphill climb.

Related to that, a subscription to updates is a little non-standard, although I have heard of it being done.  Personally, I prefer the system where minor updates are free, and major updates have a small purchase cost (such as 20% of full cost).  $40 for a major update to ListMailPro is definitely reasonable in my book.  (Also, I really wouldn't mind if the 'upgrade policy' got changed, but you didn't hear that from me.  :wink: )

Just for reference, my wife Linda has 2 pieces of software that are critical to her business (music).  The companies put out major updates once a year and she always buys the upgrade, even without checking to see if there are any new features she needs.  For these, upgrades cost about 40% of the cost of the full package.

I will also voice my opinion that I believe forum access should remain free to all users.  Perhaps a paid support option separate from the forum could be the buffer to controlling your time, but users should have access to other users without additional cost.

As you know, ListMailPro is one of the most important pieces of software that any online business needs to be profitable.  I really appreciate the stability and reliability of the software.  It's one of the few applications I don't have to worry about whether it will work right or not.

I also appreciate your continued development of new features, and your committment to your customers.  I wish all software developers were like you.

Thanks.
Title: Upgrades
Post by: steve3 on December 08, 2005, 06:40:22 am
I totally accept that Dean needs support, and he should probably sell new subscriptions only on the basis that they pay a small annual subs.
the problem is that old hands have been given free updates for life (not a good plan Dean!) so we need to find otherways to support Dean.

Only way out of that would be to launch a new version, with new terms and conditions inclusing an optional subscription for updates, and make our the super-duper version with a higher price.  Developments could be costed, and not rolled out until enough members contributed.   Trouble is some mean gits would NEVER contribute (anyone want 2 spare copies of ListMail!!)

I would be very happy to make a contribution to development I needed, but less happy to support stuff I didn't need!!

How about using Deans Hosting - that might help him a bit.

Hope that helps.  Keep up the good work and sorry I have been too snowed under to get back to you Dean!

Steve P
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: dbowen1 on December 08, 2005, 07:39:32 am
I'm not sure how the contribution system is supposed to work. Ask people if they want to support a feature, have them donate to it, and then everyone gets it when it is done? I think that would be difficult to manage and you'd have too many "chefs in the kitchen" trying to lead development.

You'll also have those who will never contribute but will gain the full advantage of the new feature without paying a dime. They'll probably also want to have their say on development even though they aren't paying. This scenario plays out in the open source community all the time. The real contributors will feel taken advantage of.

Here are my 2 cents on a couple of issues...

I'd definitely pay for extra features that I need or want. I'd like to see a sort of plug-in or module system. i.e. buy base ListMail then buy the plugins for features you need or want. It would have to be very easy to add/remove plugins from your installation.

Forum support should remain free for everyone. This way we can help each other out. Dean would need to withdraw from helping with certain issues in the forum and force people to pay for support when the forum doesn't provide answers.

I've seen successful subscription type systems where you pay $xx per year for bug fixes and support. I think a small fee for new customers would be reasonable for the time/talent/experience needed to maintain a quality, bug-free product. (I'm not just saying that because I'm an exempt current customer. Even it I was a new customer I wouldn't complain about this because I think it is fair.)
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: Pavel on December 08, 2005, 07:45:17 am
I think Dean as a great programmer needs a great marketer, who can take ListMail promotions to the new level as well as promote new services on the back-end, up-sell with other complementary products and earn recurring income from 3rd party services even without charging a fee for the forum.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: terriz on December 08, 2005, 09:12:43 am
I use another piece of software that is priced as follows:
$140 for the basic package. Includes 6 months of upgrades
$30-$40 each for plugins -- these are usually to interfacte toa specific system; hence the more complex your overall system, the more your investment
$40 for 6 additional months of upgrades. You can let this lapse, and just pay $40 when you see an upgrade you want.

Another option: Those who agree to pay for upgrades, get to vote on the priority list  :wink:  Others could continue to get their free upgrades, but they'd have no input into feature development.

Terri Z
www.Solo-E.com
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: mr.trevor on December 08, 2005, 10:41:33 am
Hi all,
For my reasons following, please feel free to completely disregard these thoughts..!
I am probably unusual in as much as I do not use ListMail commercially..! I purchased it mainly for the free lifetime support & upgrades offered and for my own education of installing and using software of this type. I considered that if I ever needed the capabilities of a mailing system in the future for some commercial use then by purchasing at the time I would 'lock in' my 'lifetime support and upgrades' I was happy to contribute and help towards the development work at the time.
 
I have since found that ListMail far exceeds any expectations that I may have had and that the facilities included are somewhat awesome already.

I have no personal 'needs' for additional features and so I would not expect to have any importance placed on any views that I may have of things that 'might be nice'. I have made suggestions in the past but these have been with a wish to offer any help, assistance or ideas that I can to others.

I feel that where someone has a commercial need for some additional facility, that it is financially of benefit to themselves and their business to 'bribe' Dean for his priority time in developing it. If there are a number of others that would benefit (in time or money) from this particular feature being developed first, then they could also contribute. All current users (and future subscribing new users) should have the benefit of these new features when developed as this will keep ListMail up-to-date and competitive (or better) than other systems.

In line with these thoughts, anyone who wishes to direct development directly for their specific needs should shoulder the additional cost of directing Dean's time. However, this should not mean that Dean does not include the results in his product to enhance ListMail in the future.

Using supply and demand principles, maybe for a specific function users could 'pledge' what they would pay for their specific need, and when the total pledged satisfies the cost of Deans exclusive time then Dean collects payment and starts their work.

As I am ecstatic about ListMail currently and have no particular requirements that would save me time or money, then I would not expect anyone to take any particular notice of these comments.  :wink:

Best regards,
... oh   and a very Happy Christmas to you all.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: listmailpro on December 09, 2005, 06:09:06 am
Two cents from a very loyal, very long-term user of LMP. Some very great comments and suggestions so far on this topic, so here's my take as well. I work closely with a great guy who writes the code and manages my company's web site. He also hosts and writes several other companies sites, and has recently run into the same issue you have. His "shopping engine" started a year ago as a one-size-fits-all, and as he added awesome functionality, everyone would get to take advantage of it. Now, certain clients (myself included) want certain things faster than others, and don't care much about some of the features other companies may want. Now, in this case, you'd be giving the new stuff to ALL, but the bigger problem is, if another customer pays more than I would for something, OR if their project runs long, I lose out because nothing else is getting done in that time.

I am perfectly willing to pay more money than my originally agreed upon price IF I ask specifically for something, but as a past loyal customer, I also expect "regular updates and feature additions" that I may not even have ever considered. If the people who would choose to pay extra for faster implementation of specific features could support you hiring some help or justify working more hours, I'm all for it; and I'd probably even cough up some bucks for a couple features myself every now and then. *BUT* - I very firmly believe your primary focus should be spent on trying to determine what makes your product better for the masses. And that's true for multiple reasons.
1) If the product meets the needs of the masses, you sell more copies to NEW customers just because it's that much better a program
2) You lose less existing customers to other applications
3) You're not constantly torn as to what direction to be going in

I say the key should be focusing on the majority, and as time allows, make some money on the side... but not the other way around.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: BGSWebDesign on December 09, 2005, 06:40:34 am
Hi all,

Great comments here... some of these were covered before, here's some more of my thoughts... and replies...

Quote
Such a poll would help me see what, in general, needs the most attention


I suggested polls for determining features over one year ago... it still may be an option, but NOT if you follow the route I believe would be most helpful for you now - as laid out by others here, here's what I see as being most important - based on the previous posts..

1.) MAKE List Mail Pro the BEST Mailing List software (*for the masses)
this probably means that some features may not get implemented because 'the masses' don't want them?   Not sure... but if you review my top 10 list, I believe that ALL of those would benefit 'the masses', especially the 'split-testing' options, and other features, here's my list:
http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=906.0

2.) Provide an upgrade route based on ONE of the following FOUR options:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

   A.) Allow Subscription purchases ($30/year), etc...
      as stated by others, I don't feel this will work well for you, and may slow you down as you'll get few interested in it, or at least fewer interested in it then the other options.

  B.) Provide one time UPGRADES - at approx. 40% of cost of LMP (about $40)
    this sounds workable, and would get others to upgrade, but then again, there's no incentive to get those to pay to continue using your services..

  C.) Provide Upgrades for fee - but require subscription to get them, and ALSO Provide Forum Access, and Faster Customer Service Help for the subscription fee - this would invovle multiple TIERS of Subscription, for example - Gold (full - includes forum access, priority customer service and free upgrades), Silver (full minus customer service, includes forum access and free upgrades), Bronze (full minus forum access and minus customer service - this option only includes upgrades - no customer assistance or forum access).
    I believe this may be the best option, as it allows users to purchase the plan that works best for them, if they just want upgrades they choose Bronze, if they also want forum access they choose Silver, if they need help beyond that (since this requires the most of your time) they choose Gold and get priority customer service AND forum acess AND free upgrades.

   D.) Free upgrades for life, but sell Plug-ins for extra money.
    I don't believe this will work and will cause too much overhead for you to track, and less people paying you money.

That is all of the options, I myself believe option C is the only way to do it... though you could try Option C AND also still sell plug-ins for extra money - just do NOT provide free customer service or forum access - unless someone subscribes for a yearly fee...

Ok, maybe this will make many of you mad, there are some that don't want to pay at all anymore... well, you're dealing with a very high-quality software program that is stable and well written - If they buy one time, and are happy, that's fine, BUT, if they want upgrades coming, they're going to have to pay - through Subscription service - setup the minimum subsiption to 1 Year - at a reasonable cost - perhaps Bottom level - Bronze is only $40/year, this gives you free upgrades for the year... if you upgrade a few times, and then new options come along after the year, you'll have to re-subscribe to get them, BUT, still make the plug-ins available for an extra fee - this boosts your income and lets you have time to write really cool - high power plug-ins!   We've talked about that before - and even laid out ways that you could do that when discussing your site upgrades - you REALLY need to setup a sample Newsletter of your Own (with LMP) and use it to track sales and clicks to see how useful the plug-ins will be - and which are most useful, and how much to charge for them...  that, I believe should be what you do with the new site...

Quote
Dean would need to withdraw from helping with certain issues in the forum and force people to pay for support when the forum doesn't provide answers.


I agree with this 100% - I STILL BELIEVE that Dean you are spending way too much time giving free support to people that cannot setup their own lists - this is a highly technical product, if a user can NOT do it on their own, then charge them appropriately - $100/setup, or whatever, calculate your time involved, get an average and multiply that by $50/hour, if it takes you normally 2 hours to fix a problem, then you charge a standard $100/setup fee to get LMP up and running... etc...

That's ALL of my 2 cents for now... good luck sorting it all out... let us know what you decide..
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: truewealth on December 09, 2005, 10:25:42 am
Dean, your software and support is great!  It lloks like you have plenty of feedback on the questions that you posted.  Because you are the person that you are, I trust whatever decisions you make.  I'll be using this software forever, or until Jesus comes!  I wish you well in all that you do.

God Bless!
Tony
P.S.  I have extensive PHP experience if you need help.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: steve4 on December 10, 2005, 04:14:44 am
My two cents worth...I like dbowen1's suggestion wherby you get the basic version and purchase plug ins that you need, providing that is possible.
Dean could choose which plug ins to work on first based on which he thinks would be more popular and thereby earn him the most money collectively. It also keeps things orderly as far as only paying for what you want. :)
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: don1 on December 10, 2005, 12:03:45 pm
Here is my 2 cents:

I will probably stick with Dean and "ListMail" no matter what the conclusion is...because Dean's decision will most likely be very fair :D .

I needed a few changes to the program and the latest version has just what I asked for :) ...now that is good service!

My only concern is that when I purchased the program one of the selling points was "Upgrades for Life"...I am not quite sure of the actual quote.  Me personally, I can live with it if Dean changes his policy but I am not sure how it will effect other customers who bought his product.

Anyway, I pretty much agree with Brett, who by the way seems to always spend a lot of time and thought with his questions and answers...If you make "ListMailPro" the best program available and market it accordingly....everything else will fall into place.

Good Luck with your decision!

Don
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on December 11, 2005, 09:30:41 pm
Thank you all for your excellent feedback!  I am uplifted by the show of support.

Due to competition I think I need to lower the initial price of ListMail.  $175 might be a better starting point.  I could go cheaper if the new services (below) show promise.

I like the plugin idea but I don't like the idea of selling something that seems 'stripped down'.  I agree with that fact that this would allow people to buy the features they need, which would make the program more easy to use when complicated features aren't needed.  I will consider this further as I definitely see it as an opportunity.  Ultimately, however, I may prefer if everyone could take full advantage of ListMail relatively inexpensively.  I think I have it figured out with the new services (below).

I am undecided about providing full forum access free of charge.  Mostly, because providing it to members only is such a great deterrant to piracy.

I am still leaning towards a yearly subscription fee of $30 for forum access and updates.  Current owners will not be required to participate.  Considering this yearly fee I could drop the initial price even below $175 in an effort to gain more customers.

I am redesigning the support system and will be expanding my services.

Full Installation   $45
Full Installation + Site Migration   $55
Repair Existing Installation   $30
Upgrade to Latest Version   $20
Server Optimization (MySQL,Mail)   $45
Multiple IP Patch (Postfix,qmail,Exim)   $85
Dedicated Server One-Time Setup (Win/Linux, WWW,DNS,Mail,MySQL)   $175
Daily Backup Service   $5/mo - Thanks, dad for this gem of an idea! :)
Scheduled Cron Tasks (2)   $25/yr
Priority General Support *Includes hands-on assistance   $20/mo
Dedicated Server Management   $50/mo

The new service system will be far more user friendly.  For example, host data will always appear at the top of a request where I can easily access it (and you can easily update it!).  During migration or where two servers are involved there will be the ability to add more information also at the top of the ticket for easy access.  For server operations or where administration is involved there will be additional fields for this information.

The new services, combined with a yearly subscription fee, new more professional sales-driven site and a marketable initial price should be a huge improvement

I haven't yet decided on the contribution system idea.  I see that the majority voted that they like the idea and would contribute to see the features they would like.  This may indeed be the best way to go about it as it prevents people from taking advantage of how nice I am. :-)  I'll consider this system for the new site when it's in a more complete state (I'm workin' on it!).

Thanks to everyone again for their excellent feedback and support of ListMailPRO!

Best regards,
DW
Title: user contribs
Post by: john2 on December 20, 2005, 02:19:31 pm
Dean:

Thank you for your willingness to support and enhance your product.  I've been a user for almost 3 years now, and appreciate your commitment for its ongoing viability.  To tell you the truth, I haven't had time to keep up with some of your upgrades so far.

There are a couple issues here I'm not sure you're considering.  

First, if custom modifications are not adequately compensating you for your efforts, you can rectify that by going to an hourly rate, or estimating the jobs higher than you do now (and, if you choose, refunding the difference if your estimate proves greater than the value of the time/work).

Second is the issue of onging improvements and being adequately compensated for those.  Since your policy is/has been that upgrades are distributed free to users, this effort must be supported by sales to new users.  If your product remains a viable script that the market wants and is competively featured and priced, it should sell (assuming you are able to let prospective customers know about it when they're investigating other similar products).  Without improvements, it probably would not compete well with other products that continue to enhance their offerings, and sales/revenues would decline (thereby forcing you into more difficult choices).

Third is support and making upgrades available to your existing customer base.  Your current policies do not provide income to operate this service, thereby jeopardizing your ability to continue to upgrade the product and support it properly.

As an existing customer who relied upon your upgrade/support policy, I naturally want it to continue.  However, I also want you to be in business so that your product continues to meet my evolving needs.  And I recognize that if ListMail doesn't serve your needs with adequate income, you will look for something else to do, and I will have to look for another product to meet mine.

Your contribution model survey begs the question of how to generate enough money to keep you afloat and able to enhance/support ListMail.  It effectively asks us to give to you so you can in turn give us what we need.  That's a hard model to run a business under.  Just tune in to public TV when they're trying to raise money.

I for one would rather see you analyze what sort of time/cost is needed for each phase of what you're considering: enhancements/upgrades; support; customization; and marketing.  Then I would consider the number of units/people that would benefit from each such category (generating a basic cost/effort per customer budget), as well as the respective profitability that shoud be assigned to each area.  Then I would consider whether the market would bear a change in policy/cost to enable you to recover what is needed to keep those various functions going and still give you a reasonable profit.

For instance, if you decide that basic support generally takes you x hours a week at y cost (put a value on your time), multiply that sum times 52 and you know how much you need to generate from that area each year just to break even.  Then add in the target profit, as well as general overhead associated with it.  You should also include those times you troubleshoot some difficult problem for customers, like the threaded discussion when you were working on server timeout problems.

How will/do you get compensated for this?  Through future sales?  If so, then how many sales do you have to generate to pay for that service, as well as the future support those sales will require down the road?

Then go to your enhancement items you want for upgrades.  Some are necessary R&D to keep the product viable in the marketplace.  Others may be to improve on usability bugs or features that perhaps could/should have been there in the first place.  How much time do you have to put into these?  How much will it cost you?  What reasonable profit do you want to assign to those items?  Now,  how many aditional sales must you make to pay for them, allowing for ongoing support as well?

Now, what's your cost of marketing?  Overhead?  Your salary and benefits?  Profit?

How much do you really have to sell each year to keep things going the way they are?  is that realistic?  If not, then how many can you realistically hope to sell?  What's the shortfall in income?  Where will you make up that difference?

Get the picture?  You've put the whole load for maintaining customer service and product improvements on the future sales.  Therefore you'd better be selling  your pants off to stay afloat.  If you're not, you won't.  And if your time is spent marketing, how much do  you have left to spend on support and upgrades?  And if not performed by you, then how will you pay others to do it for you?

The only other alternative is to charge for support and/or upgrades, and find some way to convince us existing customers it's in their interests to keep you afload and prospering.

Most of us like your product or we wouldn't take the time to write.  We selfishly want you to be around, because it serves our purposes to keep doing so.  We don't want to pay a lot to stay with you, though, because if we do, we'll start comparing ListMail to other products on the market that might have some of the whistles and bells we've hoped for but haven't seen yet.  And then some of us will go elsewhere.  Just like we would if you don't keep improving the product or if you couldn't afford to stay in business.

Asking for voluntary contributions is certainly one way to do it.  But probably not an easy one to make sure you get what you need to stay afloat.  It's certainly one way to keep supporting that customer base while you consider changing the rules for new customers.  Whatever you choose, it has to work for you or you won't keep doing it.  And if you don't, it doesn't matter what we think.

So, my friend, you have some hard decisions.  Decisions that affect not only your business, but our businesses as well.  The sooner you address them and figure out where you're going, the sooner we can either give  you our support or start looking elsewhere.

Good luck whichever way you choose.  Feel free to PM me to discuss this further.


john
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: mr.trevor on December 20, 2005, 04:37:04 pm
An excellent post. I totally agree.
Title: A suggestion for contributions
Post by: peter on January 01, 2006, 03:32:57 pm
Give credit for contributing code.

I'm sure, like me, a number of your clients are PHP coders.  They could pay the $30 or sub x bug fixes, or y new feature.

Just a thought.    Anyway - some sort of incentive to contribute.  It may end up with people going out of there way to send you code - would give you an OSS benifit.

It would mean the featureset would grow faster.

Cheers,
Frak - http://frakkle.com
Title: Future Development of List Mail Pro - timeframe?
Post by: BGSWebDesign on January 03, 2006, 11:05:33 am
Hi DW,

You've got the feedback you need up here, John2's reply is great, including this:

Quote
Your contribution model survey begs the question of how to generate enough money to keep you afloat and able to enhance/support ListMail. It effectively asks us to give to you so you can in turn give us what we need. That's a hard model to run a business under. Just tune in to public TV when they're trying to raise money.

I for one would rather see you analyze what sort of time/cost is needed for each phase of what you're considering: enhancements/upgrades; support; customization; and marketing. Then I would consider the number of units/people that would benefit from each such category (generating a basic cost/effort per customer budget), as well as the respective profitability that shoud be assigned to each area. Then I would consider whether the market would bear a change in policy/cost to enable you to recover what is needed to keep those various functions going and still give you a reasonable profit.


I agree with that too - what I'm wondering is WHAT is the status, what have you decided on - and how long we'll wait for some of the new features?  

The new year is here, and I'd like to see where LMP is going to take me in the year ahead....  there have been many features suggested, and I've suggested a top 10 myself...   can you give us a Time Schedule DW, or at least let us know what you've decided about handling future development and contribution?

Here's a quick rundown again of my top 10 (you can see the original list here (the 2nd message in the thread): http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=906.0
-------------------------------------------------
1.) A queue auto re-start program (and a way to see in a log file how it did, how many messages were sent/bounced etc.)

2.) Split Testing Mailings, and Split Test Tracking - this is detailed in this thread: http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=455.0

3.) Global FollowUps - provide us a way to name/save/load followups, more info at this thread: http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0

4.) Better Custom HTML/Remove links (see this post: http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=873.0)

5.) Profile Editing - let us choose what to include with profiles, and let the User login and see which lists they are subscribed to and sub/unsub themselves, change their name/email address, etc...

I think those are the main ones, what's the schedule like?  I see the last time you released code was Nov. 26th, almost 2 months ago...
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on January 10, 2006, 04:57:53 am
Yes, thank everyone for their excellent advice!

The release is slow-coming as I'm working feverishly on the new website.  This is ListMailPRO's #1 priority at the moment as I absolutely must start making (just a bit!) more cash to continue development.  The site is coming along nicely.  I recently implemented a sales FAQ with plans for an exhaustive Support FAQ, and have almost finished the brand new tech support area including support for stored hosting profiles, ongoing subscription services with renewal, additional and better priced support options, etc.

I'm basically designing the whole site at once, settling into the thoughtful (and artful) groove of design and mastering the backend operations of a database-driven website.  Once it's all in order I will be able to focus on developing ListMailPRO further.  Until then, thank you for your patience and understanding.

To give you an idea about what I'm working on at this very moment, here are a few screenshots from the new tech support area I'm working on:
(http://listmailpro.com/misc/lm2-membersupport.gif)

(http://listmailpro.com/misc/lm2-installmigrate.gif)

(http://listmailpro.com/misc/lm2-supporttypes.gif)

Everything seen that can be clicked on is already programmed.  When you make a purchase a new "Open Ticket" is created instantly.  (No more "Unpaid' tickets.)  If your subscription service is cancelled accidentally we automatically calculate the free trial (PayPal) so you can renew your subscription ASAP.

Alignment, display, final prices, etc. are formalities that will likely come when the bulk of the rest of the site is finished, but who knows, I'm working very hard, improving things everywhere as I go.  I hope to also detect the members' local time zone so display is that much easier to understand.  When I figure that out I'll be sure to add it to ListMailPRO, too! :)

I'm excited and motivated and working hard towards ListMailPRO again becoming a feared contender in the marketplace (we let it go for too long!).  There's a lot I'm not showing you here...  patience. ! :)

Thank you all again for your invaluable input.

Regards
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: BGSWebDesign on January 12, 2006, 07:20:38 am
Hi DW,

Quote
I'm excited and motivated and working hard towards ListMailPRO again becoming a feared contender in the marketplace (we let it go for too long!). There's a lot I'm not showing you here... patience. !  


That looks AWESOME!  Congratulations on it - I guess what I'm looking for is a 'TIME-TABLE' or Schedule on when you think you will start/complete various things we've listed up here as our most wanted updates?

For example I post things and they do not always get answered, here's one here:
http://listmailpro.com/forum/index.php?topic=983.0

As you can see, I always ask - 'Is it Part of the Next Release'?  

Can you see how it would be so helpful for all of us if you listed a simple time-table, even if it did not have dates, that said what you were working on next, and then that we could expect release of code for that update at some point in the future - that way - we could see if what we wanted fixed/updated was coming up in the future - (hopefully with dates we could also see WHEN it was expected to be started/completed)....

If you could give us a Time-Table for this - perhaps a simple STICKY post that does NOT allow questions, that just lists the things being updated?

One other thing I notice here, Software Updates $20/year, Forum Support $15/year, Software Updates+Forum Support $35/year - that's great, I'm so happy you've FINALLY decided to build in a yearly support method for you to get financial support -that should help you IMMENSELY, but I do believe you should be careful of the Bug Investigation - FREE, as others may abuse that to get you to fix things/work on things that are not really 'bugs', so be careful there...

As in my last question then - WHEN will you get this completed or when do you expect to - and then WHAT will you work on next as far as updates, and WHEN do you expect those completed, etc, etc, etc...  I'd really like to see several new features coming up - or at least you've mentioned planning them- one is the 'Re-Start' script, and a way to track sent, re-scheduled emails (a log)?  There are several others, as you know, such as 'Split-Test Mailings', and 'Split-Test Tracking' with purchase tracking, etc....   your thoughts?

Good luck on the new 'Payment System'...
Title: Re: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: RowdyRhodes on February 08, 2006, 09:53:53 am
Hi Dean -- Happy New Year to you and yours.

I'm confused as to what it is that you're seeking here so I'm going to step my way through this and quote out what you initally asked. I'd love to read all the posts but I dont have that kind of time right now. For all I know you've already resolved this, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents in case you haven't and if you have I'll eventually read about it all here.

Quote from: "DW"
I'm seeking input from ListMail clients on this issue - your vote would be very much appreciated!


You got it my friend once I understand this. Feel free to correct me any place I go off track in my thought lines.

Quote from: "DW"
I think that there are well over 100 suggestions for the program at this point.  While I plan on implementing many features over the coming weeks and months, dozens will certainly remain and more are sure to come.


This is good and you're talking about research and development of future versions of your product, the ideas and suggestions given to you by your exisitng customers or, at times, by individuals seeking something that your product currently does not provide. Such as when we were all spending time talking about how you should develop the user selection processing.

Quote from: "DW"
A number of my clients have recently requested custom rush features and I have provided the service at very reasonable rates.  The experience has forced me to re-evaluate accepting these jobs, however.  I am concerned that doing them causes those who don't contribute to be without the often very simple to implement features they desire and need.


Customizations are good for your pocket! Rushed customizations are even better. We used to double our hourly rates for rush jobs. If you are under pricing yourself then the obvious solution is to either not take on the work or increase your pricing.

The second part of what you mention is confusing. If they are simple to implement features then as you invest some of your revenues into R&D those are the features that become the benefits for future purchasers of your product and rewards for the existing clientele. There shouldn't be any charges directly to exisitng clients for this type of development. You should be putting aside money for R&D. If that means increasing the price to new clients to purchase the whole package, so be it.

Quote from: "DW"
I am also concerned that due to my over-generous nature I often end up giving too good a deal.  When a feature is much harder or time consuming than expected I sometimes feel undercompensated or that my time would have been better spent working on other things.  It's true - I need to stay focused on the big picture and implement what's most important for ALL ListMail users - that means the small but useful features no-one's willing to pay for, too!  At the same time I must continue working on marketing, the new web site and, above all, turning enough of a profit from LMP and other internet marketing ventures to continue my efforts working at home.


Over-generosity can be looked upon in two ways: 1. negative (you're underpricing on customizations and/or not performing to the spec that was originally discussed and price negotiated upon) or 2. positive (you're building further customer loyalty, word of mouth advertising, favours in return when you ask for them, client faith in your ability to get the job done regardless, and a reputation as someone who actually cares and goes above and beyond the call).

About all existing clients and overall development of your product, again it sounds like you're not investing back into the software because the revenues are not high enough to sustain both your operation and the R&D you would like to perform. If that is the case then either, as mentioned above, the pricing for a new purchase of the product has to increase to cover future R&D or you have to increase customization rates. Personally I have never heard of a software company asking clients to pay for R&D. It is supposed to be built into the product pricing.

Quote from: "DW"
One solution I've come up with is a contribution system for new features.  I could set a price based on how difficult I feel a feature is to implement and you, my loyal happy customers, could contribute partial payments or buy features outright.  Once a feature is completely paid for I would get started immediately in an effort to have it in the next update.


This is now sounding like you want to try and combine the two: customizations and R&D. I would respectfully suggest you separate the two in your mind. The first one is you being hired as a computer consultant to write custom code for existing clients and their specialized needs. The 2nd is in-house product development. The costs associated with that need to be addressed as to how much you can realistically afford to plow back into R&D to add new features and continue to stay ahead of your competition.

Quote from: "DW"
The 'prices' for each feature would probably be much higher, double or triple what I've currently been charging for rush features.  As a result, me being rushed will become infrequent and I can continue to work stress-free, calm and, most important of all, collected and overly-thoughtful as I usually am.  When I am rushed, such as when a difficult feature is completely paid, I will feel good and keep my momentum because I will know that I have been compensated generously.


I'm still with you on this! I agree 100%. If someone wants to hire you as a consultant and wants the job done yesterday then charge them big time. You're talking customizations, not technical support or development. These are specialized features for specialized needs. From the sounds of the above you've had a rush of "can you do this" and "can you do that" and "I need it now" type people coming at you. Charge them Dean. Plain and simple. Take a percentage of those doubled or tripled customization rates and plow them into covering the downtime of performing R&D. Use the extra money to further enahnce your existing product to attract new clients who will pay that much more for the software because of the new features. That increase in revenue, again, you take a percentage and plow back into R&D, and round and round it goes.

Quote from: "DW"
I would, of course, continue to work toward implementing features on a regular basis regardless of contributions.  For example, if no features are completely paid for I might implement the one that is the closest to completion percentage-wise, no matter the difficulty.


This is probably where you are making your financial error. With increased sales and an increase in the cost of customizations, you have to account for the cost associated with developing and implementing new features. If you don't then you end up either in debt or working for nothing other than your continued love of the project and the product. Neither of which pays the rent or puts food on the table.

As far as I can understand what you want me to vote upon (I haven't placed a vote yet) you are asking whether I would be willing to pay for features that I may or may not need and haven't asked for. Which doesn't make a whole lot of business sense to me to consider doing.

You know I love your product, have been a strong advocate of LMP for quite a long time, promote it free of charge without any affiliate remuneration through our site, always recommend list wannabe owners to buy LMP, and I'm not looking to switch list management software, so don't take this the wrong way:

You have to stay competitive in your product features all of the time and that costs money otherwise someone else will come along with a better list mail management package. If you don't stay competitive then it is distinctly possible that some of your existing clientele would walk away and purchase from one of your competitors. You in turn lose clients and all possible future revenues from those individuals.

My suggestions in recap are:

1. for customizations charge standard programming rates
2. for rush customizations charge "rushed" rates
3. increase volume of product sales
4. possibly increase product price
5. set aside a specific % (10-15% on every sale and job for R&D)
6. continue using your existing clientele to spread the word about you
7. continue using existing clientele as testers and suggesters
8. do not directly charge R&D costs to your exisitng clientele
9. offer additional features and benefits so that both new and long term clients benefit from using LMP

Hope this helps Dean. And if I'm waaaaay off the mark here, please feel free to haul me back on track so I can vote.

By the way: For all the above business advice and suggestions where do I send the bill?  :roll:  :lol: Just kidding. Keep up the great work and don't be so overly generous with these "I need this yesterday" type customizations. Make 'em pay is what I say.

I know there will be some who think that it is unfair for everyone to benefit when only new clients and existing clients requiring customizations foot the bill for the continued development of LMP but as far as I know that's the way that it's done. I don't pay for upgraded features in Windows XP -- they just happen because the cost is covered by new clients and customizations.

When each of you bought this product you were footing the bill for future development while clients who bought before you benefited from your purchase or have I completely lost my marbles on this?
 
Take care,
Rowdy Rhodes
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Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: BGSWebDesign on February 08, 2006, 11:54:15 am
Hey Rowdy, DW,

Rowdy makes some good points, but most of these are obscured by the fact that (as most people), he does NOT understand software development.

Quote
Personally I have never heard of a software company asking clients to pay for R&D. It is supposed to be built into the product pricing.

I don't pay for upgraded features in Windows XP -- they just happen because the cost is covered by new clients and customizations.


Ohhh, but you do pay for them, OVER and OVER again, just count how many versions of Windows you have owned, has it been more than 1?
Than you have paid - and as good as the marketing 'snow job' is, you will continue to pay, when the next version is released!

You see, the typical Software model is put money in R&D, and then keep releasing new software versions, over and over and over again, charging the customer for every new release, Microsoft does an even better job, since they make most of their products NON backwards compatible, which means when the new version comes out, it can't read/save in Older Version formats - tada..... force the user to upgrade, THERE - you've just paid for the update - without even knowing!

It's these little things that many Linux experts and Webmasters understand right away, at least most of them that are smart enough  :o

It would take a long time to explain other models, what I think DW is doing is a good thing, trying to find a model that works for him...

Your points are good - since if DW is having problems paying the rent, then his current model is NO GOOD.  This I've written about before, he needs to think more about charging everyone to fix a little problem - especially those that can not even get their LMP setup or running, now there's a source of income, either that or charge more for the product to limit the users to those that know what they are doing.

There are other things that could be done, I believe DW is heading in the right direction, but seems to lack the perseverance/self-discipline to enforce his own rules - that happens often when you work for yourself, I've done it for almost 20 years, that's one of the hardest things to do....

So, DW, you'll need to be harder on yourself in applying your own rules to what you decide, but in the end, as you can see by the poll, the winner is:
I like it - I'd be willing to contribute a reasonable amount to have the features I want implemented more quickly

I believe that those that understand the software development cycle know why this option would work for them.... those that believe they should get upgrades for life for software that is not supported by a billion dollar marketing budget - probably believe different  :shock:
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: Kino on February 19, 2006, 09:38:34 am
Maybe it's time for a version 2.0 of LM Pro with an annual subscription fee ($30/year is what vBulletin charges for access to their member's forum and upgrades).

I'm a longstanding LM Pro user and I have benefited greatly from DW's hard work and continuing upgrades. I would happily pay this fee.

K
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: mr.trevor on February 19, 2006, 11:39:45 am
Although I applaud the loyalty that users of ListMail display by expressing their willingness to pay for upgrades in future, this should not distract from the original offer of free upgrades for life that encouraged earlier purchases which supported the development work at that time. If it had not been for this earlier development work, ListMail would not be the fine product that it now is.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: DW on February 20, 2006, 03:23:03 pm
Great thread guys - thanks for the input.

I am leaning towards a 'credit' based system where everyone can vote on the features they want to see.  I'm considering incentives and benefits, such as giving users extra 'credits' for every year they've been with us, with a maximum to balance the field.

Then there's the issue of those who need features fast and are willing to pay.  This is quite rare, and I don't see it interfering too much with general development.  Were I to take on these jobs I would balance them with the top-requested features.

The new site, when it's released, will be the beginning of yearly subscriptions for updates and forum access (for new users) so I'm not as concerned about the revenue from features.  I am also implementing "site licenses" although, this will not (yet) be enforced beyond the 'honor system'.  Furthermore, resellers will be able to purchase licenses at a steep discount and actually create (and reverse, for 90 days) their own ListMailPRO accounts for their clients.  I've also added some new services including an 'offsite backup' service where you might choose to pay $5/mo to automatically store a daily backup on my servers.

With all of the above I think we will be just fine for profits and I will not need to 'tax' feature development. :)

What do you think?
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: mr.trevor on February 21, 2006, 07:24:55 am
Hi DW,
no doubt you have your own plans for development that will allow ListMail to lead or at least 'keep pace' with any competition.
I am sure that you welcome suggestions from users that you may decide to implement at some time of your choosing.
It would seem quite reasonable that anyone wishing to influence you away from your plan would donate towards your time to incorporate features that they particularly need.
Personally I have learnt a great deal from installing ListMail and watching your ongoing development work. I am amazed at how much you continually manage to include in what was an impressive product to begin with.
Thank you again for such a feature rich and reliable product.
Title: "Contribution System" for new features?
Post by: BGSWebDesign on February 21, 2006, 12:11:41 pm
Hi DW,

Quote
will be the beginning of yearly subscriptions for updates and forum access (for new users) so I'm not as concerned about the revenue from features


Sounds like you're on the right track, good for you... that's an excellent idea, and I hope it provides you the income you need to keep hard at work on LMP and new features while at the same time providing your past purchasers with the same excellent customer service they are used to.

Quote
I am leaning towards a 'credit' based system where everyone can vote on the features they want to see


This is also an excellent idea - please keep us all informed on when the next release is coming... I still think this is a big one, if you could just put up a Forum Group that would list the upcoming 'New Features' and also put up a temporary schedule on when you expect them we would all appreciate it...

Credit based system, interesting concept... would love to just see a schedule on what you've got planned for the next 3 months, 6 months and 1 year - so I can plan on implementing some of my own promotional concepts into my lists.